cliff? >> absolutely. there's no prospect to an agreement that doesn't involve those rates going up on the top 2% of the wealthiest. >> so is it a bluff when the obama administration says they're willing to go off the cliff if a deal is not reached on rates? >> i don't think it's a bluff. if you look at the reality of what happens, all the leverage which i -- right now clearly the white house has. they get more leverage if we go over their cliff. you can argue that would not send a good message to the country, to the world. it would prove that we are dysfunctional and cannot govern, et cetera, et cetera. in terms of dealing with the policy problem, which is you have this massive and growing debt, you have to bring in more revenues. there's multiple ways to do it, but critical ways to raise rates on the top end. it was what the election was about. republicans want to play the game where they think they get something. at the end of the day they lose worse if we go over the cliff. >> that's an